How I got 4 Apps in Top 100 of Appstore – Podcast
How I got 4 Apps in Top 100 of Appstore – Podcast
In this podcast series we ask experienced Appreneurs for one success story and one fail. In this episode of the Mobile Engagement Podcast:
Brandon Cowan is CEO of CrazyDog Apps, and he had his first Top 100 Appstore hit at the age of 16! Now 21 years old, Brandon has built a company that had had 4 Apps in top 100 and has an agency that develops Apps and Videos for customers. Brandon got these results without spending money on advertising, I’m sure you’ll find his approach very creative!
We score all out interview anecdotes based on 3 axes of: acquisition, UX and retention – I’ve listed the actionable points below in TL;DR but the main takeaway was Brandon’s focus on hustling to get press coverage and targeting societal problems and delivering a solution. Thats a bias to primarily acquisition and some User Experience Utility – the score is 10,5,0.
Let us know on our Twitter account how you score it.
Hustling is at the essence of how Brandon gets an App to market, here are a few takeaways:
- Identify who the key stakeholders who will benefit from being associated with your App
- Harvest as many contacts at these stakeholders
- Use outsourcing and ‘growth-hacking’ techniques for harvesting those contacts
- Don’t be afraid to go high up the tree in the target organisations
- Your first contact needs to be:
- brief! (don’t write an essay)
- establish some personal credibility about yourself and
- tell them why what you are doing will help them
- the “big fail” is actually a success!
- re-frame failure as learning experience
- know that you don’t always have the success formula and try to extract exactly why it didn’t work this time.
DAVID: Hi, this is David from StreetHawk. I’m with a man who’s had four apps in the Top 100 of the App Store. He’s also appeared on TV in “Beauty and the Geek”, so you may recognize him. His name is Brandon Cowan and he’s the CEO and founder of Crazy Dog Apps. They produce apps for themselves but also for their customers. How are you doing, Brandon?
BRANDON: I’m good. How are you?
DAVID: Great. So what I want to do is just have a look at some of the apps that you’ve developed over time. Specifically you’ve had four that have been in the Top 8 of the App Store. You started off when you were only 16 years old and you released an app called iParkedHere that went to #8 and got downloaded in 75 countries. What was the inspiration? If you were 16, you probably went driving, were you?
BRANDON: I think I was on my “L-plates” (learner) at the time, and I get to see people lose their cars in car parks all the time. Then I thought, “When I start to drive by myself, I’m not going to remember where I parked my car,” so I thought I’d just make an app for it. But the thing is that with iParkedHere, it wasn’t just “Oh, I have this idea, I think it’s good, I’ll turn it into an app.” Before I made that app, I actually had about 30 different app ideas. When I co-founded the company with a family friend, we basically thought, “Hey, let’s go through this list of about 30 ideas and basically turn at least one of them into an app,” and we thought we’d just start off with the easiest one, just to get us used to developing apps, and it just happened to be iParkedHere. It just happened to be an app to remember where you parked your car.
DAVID: Great. All right, so let’s drill into that a little bit. You whittled down to a particular area that you thought was really useful. Did you just build it and then go live? When was this? Was it in the days when it was easier to just go live and get a result or was there some cunning planning that went with it?
BRANDON: To this day, I’ve planned almost nothing that I’ve done and plan always nothing that I do. We literally just thought, “Hey, we just make this app.” We never thought that anyone would really download it. We thought, “If we get a few hundred downloads, that might be a bit cool. I think the one thing that really got the app going and made it I guess you’d call it successful is almost out of nowhere basically I found it really easy to get publicity for the app because at the time (and this is going back over four years ago, four and a half years ago), the thing that media loved—well, one thing they still love—it’s little kids doing things, and the other thing, it’s apps. I actually found it quite easy too, so I just took advantage of that. Nowadays I’m 21. I’m not sure if that’s too old but –
DAVID: You lost the kid factor. [Laughter]
BRANDON: Yeah, exactly. I don’t know if it’s that or – I think apps are just so popular now; I mean there are just so many apps in the App Store and there are so many people pitching to journalists and editors and producers that I find even now for me to get to trying a publicity of a new app that I released, it’s a million times harder, even if I’ve got a much more newsworthy app than iParkedHere.
DAVID: Right. That’s really interesting. So what happened then? Okay, so you did some initial publicity locally. What actually made it work in other countries as well too?
BRANDON: In terms of getting publicity in other countries, for me personally, it sort of started like, for example, I just went to the local paper and said, “Hey, this is Brandon, he started his company at 16, and his maiden app,” and then what I said is it hit, I think, 34 in the lifestyle category. I left out the fact that it was 34 in the lifestyle category in some random country that I’ve never even heard of, so I probably got two or three downloads. [Laughter]
And then, yeah, they thought the story was good and then I was really lucky to be in the front cover of “The North Shore Times”. And then from that, then it sort of just spiraled from there, so like The Today Show got hold of me, then after being on The Today Show, then Sydney Morning Herald and 2GB Radio, and then it just sort of went from there. Then I can only assume that the international media outlets, things like India and really random countries, yeah, so I guess they just sort of found me from there and it just sort of multiplied, which is quite cool and completely unexpected.
DAVID: Is it your sense that once you get to a particular level in the App Store in a specific category that you then start to take off, like it just basically jumps up from there?
BRANDON: To some extent. I mean, it really comes down to the app itself with literally almost any app, particularly in my situation where I’ve never spent like tens of thousands of dollars in marketing or anything like that. It sort of does go up and then it’s really the time that it takes to fall. So, for example, with getting all this publicity, a few of my apps have done quite well, they’ve been in like the Top 10 and stuff, and then I guess it was just a matter of the type of app and then how quickly it’s going to fall. So iParkedHere, it’s a useful app, so it stayed in the Top 100 for quite a while. I think it was also featured on the iTunes home page in Australia for a bit, so I think that probably also helped it to maintain its rank.
DAVID: Yeah, that would be a huge contributor.
BRANDON: Exactly. And then there are some other apps that, yeah, sort of just went right off and then went down quite quickly.
DAVID: Can you identify what it is that actually gives you that kind of staying power in the upper levels?
BRANDON: If I knew iTunes’ algorithm, I’ll tell you exactly. [Laughter]
DAVID: Probably changes week by week anyway.
BRANDON: Yeah, exactly. I think it’s safe to say that iTunes take into account the downloads that an app’s getting, and it’s not just the download, it’s the most recent downloads, so if you get 100 downloads now then it will result in your app being higher up in search results to if you got 100 downloads a year ago. So I think if your app keeps getting downloaded, and I guess word of mouth is quite important in this, so it shares much wider than whatever media outlet you might have been on or whatever marketing strategy you use. It’s basically [some] other people talk about rank and you try to market it to them, so I guess if that happens and lots of people share your app and talk about it and get their friends to download it, then that’s going to be more likely to stay higher up in searches on the App Store.
DAVID: So which of your apps actually did have kind of like a friend recruitment type capability in it? Which worked really well from a word-of-mouth perspective?
BRANDON: It’s very, very hard to measure, particularly as I consider myself to be quite a bad marketer. One of my main marketing strategies over the years is to basically just get publicity, which I’ve actually found to be quite difficult lately.
BRANDON: I wouldn’t be able to know, I guess. Fifty percent of my marketing has been working I just don’t know what that is. [Laughter]
DAVID: I think you’re quite similar to a lot of people in the sense that you’re “Golly, if I only knew what the next best step was or what was the right thing to do, rather than all the wrong things that I’m doing.”
DAVID: You end up being spread all over the place but having no focus and not knowing which thing actually does the trick. Even now I talk to some entrepreneurs and I say, “Well, hang on. You went from A to B and you’re pursuing this particular type of strategy,” and they say, “Man, all it id was just started to work. We don’t what but it just worked.” [Laughs]
DAVID: It just worked.
BRANDON: I mean it’s crazy. I mean, my apps, four of them have been in the top 100 but they’ve been in the top 100 roughly about eight times or something in total, and six or seven of the times, it’s actually been me doing stuff, but the one time, particularly with the AUSBUY, I did absolutely nothing to get it into the top 10 ones.
DAVID: Yup. So this went to #3.
BRANDON: Yeah, because it went to 19 or 20 on the Australian App Store, and after that is when I was getting publicity for it and actively trying to get it out there. But when it hit #3 specifically, this is a completely different time, months or about a year later or something, actually I did nothing. I’ve got no idea. I mean, Apple featured it. My guess is as good as yours. Yeah, all the other times it has been me but, yeah, that was a bit of a surprise. I don’t know what happened.
DAVID: Yeah, I definitely see that, that people quite often are blind in regards to what causes blips, you know. Was it because I appeared on a podcast here, or was it somebody did a review of my game there? It’s kind of one of those things that quite often you’re blind in regards to the things that are happening outside your control. Sure, you may be running a Facebook campaign or something like that, but you can’t actually see a direct correlation because “I’ve been running that for the last month but all of a sudden I saw a blip over the last weekend. What was that?”
BRANDON: Yeah, exactly. I even tried to Google the app, and nothing new came out. So, I’ve got no idea.
DAVID: Yeah. That’s interesting, isn’t it? Let’s take quite an unusual thing. You have an app called Wildlife Witness, and that was endorsed by Prince William, apparently. How did that come about?
BRANDON: Yes. This specific app—I’m sorry to all my other clients—it’s potentially my favorite app just because it’s for a good cause and quite sadly the app shouldn’t be needed. So basically 60 elephants or 20 elephants a day, or something, get killed for their. Particularly in the Southeast Asia region, there’s a whole bunch of animal cruelty going on and a lot of the stuff is illegal, so you might be going to a restaurant and see like bear paw soup; it’s actually a thing. You might be going to like a zoo and see animals looking like they’re drugged, or you might see snakes poked with sticks. This stuff does happen.
So what the app does is you download Wildlife for free on iPhone or Android, and people like us, when we travel to Southeast Asia, when we see this stuff happening, we should optionally take a picture and it’ll get your location automatically, you write what’s happening and then that information gets into an international organization called Traffic. Then they investigate it and, if necessary, they collaborate with international police and basically the national enforcement agencies to so basically work out the patterns in these things that are happening and take down these criminal networks of people that are doing it. So it’s a pretty serious app. It shouldn’t be needed, but I’m glad that something like that’s out there to basically try and put a stop to some of this terrible stuff that’s happening.
DAVID: So this is not only actually identifying where the actual infringement or crime is occurring but it also gives them the data to be able to actually kind of put two and two together and say, “Okay, this is a network happening here somewhere.”
BRANDON: Yeah, exactly. It’s less about the specific individual situations and it’s more about working out the patterns. It’s quite complex, to be honest. I made this for Taronga Zoo, one of my clients. The data actually doesn’t get sent to them; they don’t even see the data. So, yeah, it’s really been about taking down the criminal networks, which is I guess the bigger picture than the one instance of whatever might be happening.
DAVID: Right, very good. All right, so it’s called Wildlife Witness. How did it attract the attention of Prince William?
BRANDON: Taronga Zoo is amazing. Yeah, I’m really lucky to have them as a client. When he was in town, he was in Taronga Zoo—it as on the news—I think about six months ago or something. Yeah, they somehow got in touch with him and I think it was like off-camera where he promoted it but he still did it. [Laughter]
DAVID: Okay. So you didn’t get him staring straight down the camera
BRANDON: No – although he still did it. He said this is a very important app or something, yeah. And like the Australian Federal Police, they promoted it on their Facebook page. Yeah, it’s got a lot of attention. I don’t get anything out of promoting it or anything; I just like the cause of the app.
DAVID: Yeah. That’s fantastic. I guess, you know, because of the way we structure the podcast, we kind of look for what are the “aha” moments. I was just wondering if you had anything, out of all the experience you’ve had getting these top apps and so on. I think you’ve had like a Top 20 strategy game as well too. Is there some “aha” moment that you can put your finger on in terms of what you’ve been able to do, either in retention or specific ways that people use the applications or actually getting these blips in terms of downloads?
BRANDON: I think it’s really about working out a way to get the app out there. It’s becoming increasingly hard for basically any app developer. What I like to tell people – people all the time come and say, “Brandon, how do you recommend to market my app?” I think probably one of the best ways to market your app is to try and work out what organization or organizations with marketing power will benefit from people downloading your app and then they’ll just promote it for free.
DAVID: So who are the other stakeholders in the ecosystem that you’re benefiting or targeting.
BRANDON: Exactly. So a few examples of that: One of my apps is called Pet Rescue. It lets you find a pet to adopt without having to go to a shelter, so basically it lists all pets that are available to adopt across Australia. So it simply makes sense that animal shelters across Australia, like RSPCA and Animal Welfare League, all the animal shelters in Australia, they’re going to want to share the app because it will benefit their own cause specifically if people download it.
DAVID: Right. So does it actually end up looking like a pet catalogue in a sense?
BRANDON: Exactly. It’s basically… not like “Tinder” but they say… [Laughter]
DAVID: I hope not!
BRANDON: It basically lists – there are thousands and thousands of dogs, cats and other weird animals in the app, and then you can view the profile and see what the pets are like, and then you can contact the shelter or the pet fosterer.
Another example, one of my clients, he’s bit of a hardcore atheist, so I made an app for him, for Android. Apple wouldn’t approve it; they rejected it three times. So it’s an Android app. It’s actually the most popular atheist app for Android, as far as I’m aware. It’s called the Atheist Ally. It truly makes sense for atheist organizations to promote this app, and they did, so we approached the Richard Dawkins Foundation.
DAVID: I was going to say, of course, Richard Dawkins.
BRANDON: Yeah. We also made like a video together, the based on your eligibility to get into heaven based on verses in the Bible.
BRANDON: And, yeah, the Richard Dawkins Foundation, that was really exciting for us. They liked to share our stuff. They’ve got a Facebook page with over two million people and then they shared our video and that had a link to the app.
DAVID: Right, okay. So that’s a really proving point for what you’re saying—regardless of your moral stance or your belief system—that by using somebody who’s quite a powerful player in that particular space and if there’s something in it for them, then that’s a really great thing. So I’m guessing that you built that or you “scratched an itch” for your friend there but you guys didn’t step back right at the start and say, “Oh, the Richard Dawkins Foundation would really love this.” It wasn’t done that way; it wasn’t designed from promotion right from the start. It was something that he wanted to do in the first place and that just sort of came out of brainstorming, did it?
BRANDON: Exactly. I mean, with this sort of things, I personally, with that specific marketing strategy, I barely even think about it until the app’s even launched and then I think, “Oh, what organizations can I contact?” I guess what some of the listeners might be thinking is “How do I contact these big companies?” I’ve got a few different strategies. First of all, I contact about 50 or 60 different organizations, so it’s not just a matter of “Oh, contact Richard Dawkins, they’re really big, hope they get back to me and share it.” It doesn’t really work like that. So I’ll only contact at least 50 different organizations. How do I contact them? I have three different ways.
One, I sometimes use the Contact Us form on whatever website it might be. That normally doesn’t get a response; out of 50 contacts, you might get 2 responses, but it’s worth doing anyway.
DAVID: But fairly low conversion. [Laughter]
BRANDON: Yeah. What I also like to do is try and work out the main contacts for maybe the five biggest organizations. I’ll Google them, work out who’s like the CEO, sometimes the CMO, chief marketing officer, or a few people in marketing, I’ll add about five of them on LinkedIn. My strategy is I don’t actually write any message or anything initially. I just send the default thing, take them as a friend, so I don’t know their email address on LinkedIn. Then if they accept me, which I find about two out of every five will. After they accept me, then I send them a message by LinkedIn.
The third thing that I like to do, which is a bit sneaky, so I really like it. [Laughter]
DAVID: That’s my secret tactic.
BRANDON: Well, it is. I’ve done some pretty major partnerships and stuff from doing this: email guessing. So for those of you who don’t know what that is, again, all I need is like the top 5 or so biggest organizations in whatever I’m doing, I’ll work out who the CEO. It works so effectively that I only really need about two people per organization and I normally get a response. So if, for example, the CEO’s name of whatever organization is David Jones, if your name is David Jones and you work for Crazy Dog Apps, if you do a bit of Googling, you can generally find out an email from someone who works at Crazy Dog Apps.
DAVID: And you see the pattern.
BRANDON: Exactly. And then you just use the same email pattern and replace it. So in general, half the time, it’s just the first letter of the first name and then the last name, so it will be like email@example.com that I use. Yeah, I find that to be one of the most effective ways, but I try to do everything and a few of them normally work for me.
DAVID: Do you find that that approach works better than LinkedIn message?
DAVID: I just kind of feel as though, you know, to me, LinkedIn is spam these days, I get so many contacts every day, and there are always people who want to develop apps and “I don’t develop apps today,” you know. So I get a lot of that sort of stuff, and so therefore the inbox in my LinkedIn is kind of like the last place I go to look and I imagine a lot of people are in that situation.
BRANDON: To some extent. I mean, it’s more effective than sending the standard contacts using the contact email form on the website. That’s why it’s also really important to get your message right. What I find is important for me is to, in my message, this is both by email and LinkedIn, I’ll say, “Hi, I’m Brandon,” and then say something that, I guess, will get their attention and make them think that you’re not the average Joe. That’s really important. The very first thing, where possible, it needs to say, “Hi, I’m Brandon,” and then what I like to use is “I made four Top 100 apps.” So just say something that’s really impressive and make them think, “Oh, this guy is not messing around.”
BRANDON: Also the other thing is to not write a long essay because no one reads long emails or long messages. People in general just delete them.
DAVID: Yeah. I think that’s a really key tip, that sort of like, you know, “Hello, I’m David, and here’s the story of my life” is about the worst thing you can do. You really got to actually sort of read it from the recipient’s perspective.
BRANDON: Exactly. Even if I did come in and say, “Hi, I’m Brandon and I’ve made 4 Top100 apps,” and then write an essay, I’ll most likely not get a response. I mean, you do need a balance because I think some people try and write a message and they’re trying to include all their thoughts and all the benefits, exactly what they want to do and everything in the first email. I think the better approach is to keep it as short as possible, sort of to some extent what you want to do, ask them if they’re interested or if they want to hear more information. If and when they reply, and say yes, then you can go into more detail. Again, second email still shouldn’t be an essay but you can put a lot more detail than the first.
DAVID: What you’re saying is there’s a lot of manual outside-the-app activity that you need to do, a lot of hustling in order to do this growth hacking type stuff, reaching out to many people in parallel, not just kind of like putting your eggs in one basket, and definitely you’re thinking that, you know, just spending money on advertising isn’t the best acquisition strategy, it’s really about getting out there and hustling.
BRANDON: Yeah. I don’t think I’ve really spent a lot of money on advertising. And some of the work, I mean, yeah, you need to draw the line with what’s manual, what you pay other people to do, but I someone who uses fiverr.com to – I’m not getting paid for this plug. [Laughter] I’ve found and used fiverr.com. This is one of my favorite websites. I sometimes use their site to basically find people to create email lists for me. Basically on Fiverr, I find people, so for example, if I want a list of—I’ll just use this as an example—atheist organizations, and I want the atheist organization’s name, email of their CEO and name of their CEO. So there are people on Fiverr that you can contact and say, “Hey, I want 100 of these, I want this three columns in Excel spreadsheet. How much will it cost?” And in general you’ll be paying about $30-40 for that, which is a good deal. You don’t need to do that boring stuff.
DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. So that’s a pretty good thing to do, using people to actually do data research for you in that sense.
BRANDON: Yeah. I love out-sourcing.
DAVID: So one thing, just to kind of step back on that, you said that in the early days, they’re getting the publicity being the 16-year-old and doing something with apps and so on in those days in some sense, and also the fact that you’ve actually been on television. Were you trying to build a brand around your own personality in a way that you thought might be sustaining? Has that worked? It doesn’t sound like it’s made it any easier for you these days.
BRANDON: Yeah. I guess individually my apps have sort of got a bit of publicity, and then the CrazyDog brand is behind some of them. So, yeah, I find that more and more people, I guess, knowing who I am and what I do [in apps] is quite exciting for me but, yeah, I guess nothing’s really planned or anything. It just sort of, yeah, things have fallen into place.
DAVID: Yeah, right.
BRANDON: And it just sort of happened.
DAVID: Yeah, now I get it. I don’t think it’s arrogant at all. So what about this “fail”? We talk about a win and a fail? Can you tell us about a massive fail that you’ve had along the way?
BRANDON: Yeah. I guess I’ll talk about two failures. I think it’s important to define what a failure is, because, for example, a failure might be for me like spending months and months on an app and thinking it’s going to do well and then it fails; it could be when trying to market that no one getting back to you. So it really comes down to how you define failure. And I think just because you failed to succeed doesn’t mean that you failed. That, I think, is important to remember.
BRANDON: Now in terms of failures, I guess my two big ones are: I released this app two and a half years ago; it’s called Gravity Icons. It’s available for iPhone and iPad. I thought this was an absolutely revolutionary concept, amazing app, I thought this was going to be the next Angry Birds. I really thought I’d be retiring off this app.
DAVID: At the age of 20! [Laughter]
BRANDON: Oh, you should see the concept.
DAVID: It was incredible.
BRANDON: It’s really a new concept. I don’t believe it’s really been done before. You flick around icons from popular apps like Temple Run and then it uses gravity to like fall to the bottom of the screen and you need to stop them from falling from the screen. So, yeah, I released the app and them I’m like “Oh, I’m going to use my [known] marketing strategy which was getting publicity for my app, and then I sort of thought, “Oh, this app is actually isn’t newsworthy,” and I didn’t want to approach my previous media contacts to try. I sort of knew it’s not newsworthy and I guess if pitching stuff that is not newsworthy, then you damage your reputation for doing so.
DAVID: You kind of change your brand, don’t you, if you go from Pet Rescue and Wildlife Witness, which are very worthy things to be promoting and there are good stories behind them to actually pimping a game that a very different value proposition to a journalist, isn’t it?
BRANDON: Yeah, exactly. Some people have succeeded but I knew that I wouldn’t succeed if I were to do this. And then I thought, “Hey, how else can I promote the app?” Then I sort of like business cards to sort of promote it, yeah, the app just didn’t take off as well.
My other failure, which was—I’m still surprised at how this has failed—an app called PoliceCam. I released this with a few partners about eight or nine months ago and that’s when all the “coward punches” and “king hits” and everything was like hot on TV. They’re showing them basically on a weekly basis. There was a period of like every night where they just kept showing them. So I made an app called PoliceCam which aims to prevent “coward punches”, so I thought it’s going to be so easy to get publicity for this, an app that prevents something that’s on the news every night and it does it effectively.
So I contacted all my previous media contacts; there’s about 40 of them from the news, The Today Show, 26:24 held basically a ton of media contacts that I’ve already gotten past of these; half of them weren’t even cold-calling. I was only featured on one semi-popular tech news website, and the guy wrote about it because he liked the fact that I made the Wildlife Witness app, so he sort of felt sorry for me. [Laughter] I nearly got it in A Current Affair and then after a while they just stopped being interested. So, I don’t understand. I think my features were good. I actually can’t explain how or why it failed. I’m still surprised. I don’t know why it failed, but there are certain things that are just simply out of people’s control.
DAVID: It’s quite a potent value proposition. Quite often they [show] this concept of a citizen’s arrest, and the reason why citizen’s arrests don’t really happen presumably is because of the possibility of a violent confrontation whereas you’re offering a solution which is the citizen can be a witness and that reporting thing is actually quite valuable in a policing scenario. It sounds like it should really be a good thing.
BRANDON: Exactly. And that’s what I thought so. Something I’ve come to today is “if you don’t bet the farm”, then you can’t lose it. I didn’t spend tens of thousands of dollars making the app. I spend a lot of my time but it’s not like my one and only thing that if it failed, then I’m going to go bankrupt and kill myself. [Laughter]
DAVID: I’m going to “coward punch” myself! [Laughter]
DAVID: There you go. There’s the hack to get it out there. [Laughter]
DAVID: It’s all possible. Yes, but it’s interesting. The psychology of journalists is, I think, a really interesting thing to look at as well to. So you’re saying that you had the relationships, they’d seen you before; you would think that they would have picked it up. It was topical, there was a bunch of things, but you just haven’t been able to sort of “unpick” what the actual cause of that ambivalence was.
BRANDON: Yeah. It’s quite confusing to this day. When I fail, I like to learn, but in this instance, I don’t know how I could have done anything better.
DAVID: All right. They’re good and great experiences. Thank you very much for that. So we might as well wrap it up. So where should we look for you next?
BRANDON: I’m getting into public speaking. I’ve got a bit of a weird story as I started out. I was kicked out of school when I was 13 years old, nearly died from drinking when I was 13-14 years old, and then, yeah, I was quite lucky I made my company at 16 and was really fortunate to have made four apps that have been in the Top 100. So I guess I’d like to share my story, what happened in between, basically motivate people to do what they love, and have spoken at a few dozen events for organizations and so on. So, yeah, that’s what I’m slowly going into, as well as app development. And I like, quite random, but I really like to make animated videos for people, so if anyone is listening then get in touch with me for that.
DAVID: Okay, very good. So that’s Brandon Cowan, Crazy Dog Apps. All right, Brandon, I really appreciate your time and the insights you provided today. I really love it. Thank you very much.
BRANDON: Thanks, David.
DAVID: Okay, mate. Thanks. Cheers!